POONA PACT-A MEAN DEAL

(b) By separate electorates for the first ten years and there­after by joint

electorates and reserved seats, it being under­stood that joint electorates shall not be forced 1tpOn the Depressed Classes against their will unless such joint electorates are accompanied by adult suffrage.

N: B.-Adequate Representation for the Depressed Classes cannot be defined in quantitative terms until the extent of representation allowed to other communities is known. But it must be understood that the Depressed Classes will not con­

Sent to the representation of any other community being.

Settled on better terms than those allowed to them. They will not agree to being placed at a disadvantage in this matter. In any case the Depressed Classes of Bombay and Madras must have weight age over their population ratio of representation, irrespective of the extent of representation allowed to other minorities in the Provinces.

Condition No. V.

ADEQUATE, REPRESENTATION IN THE SERVICES

The Depressed Classes have suffered enormously at the hands of the high caste officers who have monopolized the Public Services by abusing the law or by misusing the discretion vested in them in administering it to the prejudice of the Depressed Classes and to the advantage of the caste Hindus without any regard to justice, equity or good conscience. This mischief can only be avoided by destroying the monopoly of, taste Hindus in the Public Services and by regulating the recruitment to them in such a manner that all communities including the Depressed will have an adequate share in them. For this purpose the Depressed Classes have to make the following proposals for statutory enactment as part of the constitutional law:­

(1) There shall be established in India and in each Province in India a public Services Commission to undertake the recruitment and control of the Public Services.

(2) No member of the Public Service Commission shall be removed except by a resolution passed by the Legislature nor shall he be appointed to any office under the Crown after his retirement.

(3) It shall be the duty of the Public Service Commission, subject to the tests of efficiency as may be prescribed,

(a) To remit the Services in such a manner as will secure due and adequate representation of all communities, and (b) to regulate from time to time priority in employment, in accordance with the existing extent of the representati01J of the various comm14nities in any particular service concerned.

Condition No. V I

REDRESS AGAINST PREJUDICIAL ACTION OR NEGLECT OF INTERESTS

In view of the fact that the Majority Rule of the future will be the rule of the orthodox, the Depressed Classes fear that such a Majority Rule will not be sympathetic to them and that the probability of prejudice to their interests and neglect of their vital needs cannot be overlooked. It must be provided against particularly because, however adequately represented the Depressed Classes will be in a minority in all legislatures. The Depressed Classes think it very necessary that they should have the means of redress given to them in the constitution. It is therefore proposed that the following provision should be made in the constitution of India :­

” In and for each Province and in and for India it shall be the British North Amer. duty and obligation of the Legislature and the icaAct, 1867, Sec.93 Executive or any other Authority estal; Jlished by Law to make adequate provision for the education, sanitation, re­cruitment in Public Services and other matters of social and political advancement of the Depressed Classes and to do nothing that will prejudicially affect them.

“(2) Where in any Province or in India the provisions of this section are violated an appeal shall lie to the Governor-General in Council from any act or decision of any Provincial Authority and to the Secretary of State from any act or decision of a Central Authority affecting the matter.

“(3) In every such case where it appears to the Governor-General in Councilor to the Secretary of State that the Provincial Authority or Central Authority does not take steps requisite for the’ due execu­tion of the provisions of this Section then and in every such case, and

as far only as the circumstances of each case require the Governor­ General in Councilor the Secretary of State acting as an appellate authority may prescribe, for stitch period as they may deem fit, take remedial measures for the due execution of the provisions of this Section and of any of its decisions under this Section and which shall be binding upon the authority appealed against.

Condition No. VII SPECIAL DEPARTMENTAL CARE

The helpless, hapless and sapless condition of the Depressed Classes must be entirely attributed to the dogged and determined opposition of the whole mass of the orthodox population which will not allow the Depressed Classes to have equality of status or equality of treatment. It is not enough to say of their economic condition that they are poverty-stricken Or that they are a class of landless laborers, although both these statements are statements of fact. It has to be noted that the poverty of the Depressed Classes is due largely to the social prejudices in consequence of which many an occupation for earning a living is closed to them. This is a fact which differentiates the position of the Depressed Classes from that of the ordinary caste laborer and is often a source of .trouble between the two. It has also to be borne in mind that the forms of tyranny and oppression practiced against the Depressed Classes are very various and the capacity of the Depressed Classes to protect themselves is extremely limited. The facts, which obtain in this connection and which are of common occurrence throughout India, are well described in the Abstracts of Proceedings of the Board of Revenue of the Government of Madras dated 5th Nov., 1892, No. 723, from which the following is an extract:­

“134. There are forms of oppression only hitherto hinted at which must be at least cursorily mentioned. To punish disobedience of Pariahs, their masters ­

(a) Bring false cases in the village court or in the criminal courts.

(b) Obtain, on application, from Government waste lands lying all round the preacher, so as to impound the Pariahs’, cattle or obstruct the way to their temple.

(c) Have mirasi names fraudulently enter-red in. the Govern­ment account against the paracheri.

(d) Pull down the huts and destroy the growth in the backyards.

(e) Deny occupancy right in immemorial sub-tenancies.

(f) Forcibly cut the Pariahs’ crops, and on being resisted, charge them with theft and rioting.

(g) Under misrepresentations, get them to execute docu­ments by which they are afterwards ruined.

(h) Cut off the flow of water from their fields.

(I) Without legal notice, have the property of sub-tenants attached for the land-lords’ arrears of revenue.

“135. It will be said there are civil and .criminal courts for the redress of any of these injuries. There are the courts indeed; but India does not breed village Hampdens. One must have courage to go to the courts; money to employ legal knowledge, and meet legal expenses; and means to live during the case and the appeals. Further most cases depend upon the decision of the first court; and these courts are presided over by officials who are sometimes corrupt and who generally, for other reasons, sympathize with the wealthy and landed classes to which they belong.

“136. The influence of these classes with the oftlcial world can hardly be exaggerated. It is extreme with natives and great even with Europeans. Every office, from the highest to the lowest, is stocked with their representatives, and there is no proposal affecting their interests but they can bring a score of influence to bear upon it in its course from inception to exe­cution. “

There can be no doubt that in view of these circumstances the uplift of the Depressed Classes will remain a pious hope unless the task is placed in the forefront of all governmental activities and unless equalization of opportunities is realized in practice by a definite policy and determined effort on the part of Government. To secure this end the proposal of the Depressed Glasses is that the Constitutional Law should impose upon the Government of India a statutory obligation to maintain at all times a department to deal with their problems by the addition of a section in the Government of India Act to tke following effect ;­

“-1. Simultaneously with the introduction of this Constitution

and as part thereof, there shall be created in the Government of India a Department to be in charge of a Minister for the purpose of watching the interest~ of the Depressed Classes and promoting their welfare.

“2. The Minister shall hold office so long as he retains the confidence’ of the Central Legislature.

“3. It shall be the duty of the Minister in the exercise of any powers and duties conferred upon him or transferred to him by law, to take all such steps as may be desirable to secure the preparation, effective carrying out and co-ordination of measures preventative of acts of social injustice, tyranny or oppression against the Depressed Classes and conducive to their welfare through­ out India.

“4. It shall be lawful for the Governor-General­

(a) -to transfer to the Minister all or any powers or duties in respect of the welfare of the Depressed Classes arising from any enactment relating to ,education, sanitation, etc.

(b) to appoint -Depressed Classes welfare bureaus in each province to work under the authority of and in co-operation with the Minister.

Condition No. VIII

DEPRESSED CLASSES AND THE CABINET

Just as it is necessary that the Depressed Classes should have the power to influence governmental action by seats in the Legislature so also it is desirable that the Depressed Classes should have the opportunity to frame the general policy’ of the Government. This they can do only if they can find a seat in the Cabinet. The Depressed CI8.sses therefore claim that in comnion With other minorities, their moral rights to be repre­sented in the Cabinet should be recognized. With this purpose in view the Depressed Classes propose:

That in the Instrument of Instrument an obligation shall be Placed upon the Governor and the Governor-General to Endeavour to secure the representation of the Depressed Classes in his Cabinet.

II

What happened to these demands of the Untouchables and how the members of the Minorities Committee reacted to them can be well understood by a perilsal of the Report made by the Minorities Committee to the Round Table Con­ference. I give below a few extracts from that Report: ­

“5. Claims were therefore advanced by various com­mittees that arrangements should be made for communal representation and for fixed proportions of seats. It was also urged that the number of seats reserved for a minority com­munity should in no case be less than its proportion in the population. The methods by which this could be secured were mainly three: (1) nomination, (2) electorates and (3) separate electorates.

“6. Nomination was unanimously deprecated.

“7. Joint electorates were proposed with the proviso that a proportion of seats should be reserved to the communities. Thus a more democratic form would be given to the elections whilst the purpose of the electorate system would be secured. Doubts were expressed that, whilst such a system of election might secure the representation of minorities, it provided no guarantee that the representation would be genuine, but that it might, in its working, mean the nomination or, in any event, the election of minority representatives by the majority com­munities.

It was pointed out that this was in fact only a form of com­munity representation and had’ in practice all the objections to the more direct form of community electorates.

“8. The discussion made it evident that the demand which remained as the

only one which would be generally acceptable was separate electorates. The general objection to this scheme has been subject to much previous discussion in India . It in­volves what is a very difficult problem for solution, viz., what should be the amount of communal representation in the various provinces and in the Centre; that, if the whole, or practi­cally the whole, of the seats in a legislature are to be assigned to communities, there will be no room for the growth of inde­pendent political opinion or of true political parties, and this problem received a selious complication by the demand of the representative of the Depressed Classes that they should be deducted from the Hindu population and be regarded, for elec­toral purposes, as a separate community.

“9. It was suggested that, in order to meet the most obvious objection to the ear-marking of seats to communities, only a proportion should be so assigned-say 80 per cent. or 90 per cent.-and that the rest should be filled by open election. This, however, was not regarded by some of the communities as giving them the guarantees they required.

“10. The scheme proposed by Maulana Muhammad Ali, a member of the Sub-Committee, whose death we deplore, that, as far as possible 110 communal candidate should be elected unless he secured at least 40 per cent. according to arrangement, of the votes of the other community, was also considered. It was, however, pointed out that such a scheme necessarily involved the maintenance of communal registers and so was open to objections similar to those urged against separate electorates.

“11. No claim for separate electorate or for the reservation of seats in joint electorates was made on behalf of women who should continue to be eligible for election on the same footing as men. But, in order to familiarize the public mind with the idea of women taking an active part in political life and to secure their interim representation on the legislature, it was urged that 5 per cent. of the seats in the first three Cowlicks should be reserved for women and it was suggested that they should be filled by co-option by the elected members voting by proportional representation.

“12. There was general agreement with the recommenda­tion of Sub-Committee No. II (Provincial Constitution) that the representation on the Provincial Executive of important minority communities was a matter of the greatest practical importance for the successful working of the new constitution, and it was also agreed that, on the same grounds, Muhammadans should be represented on the Federal Executive. On behalf of the smaller minorities a claim was put forward for their representation, either individually or collectively, on the Pro­vincial and Federal Executives or that, if this should be found impossible, in each Cabinet there should be a Minister specially charged with the duty of protecting minority interests.

(Dr. Ambedkar and Sardar Ujjal Singh would add the words “and other important minorities” after the word Muhammadans in line 6).

The difficulty of working jointly responsible Executives under such a scheme as this was pointed out.

“13. As regards the administration, it was agreed that recruit­ment to both Provincial and Central Services should be entrusted to Public Service Commissions, with instructions to reconcile the claims of, the various communities to fair and adequate representation in the Public Services, whilst providing for the maintenance of a proper standard of efficiency.

* * *

“16. It has also been made clear that the British Govern­ment cannot, with any chance of agreement, impose upon the communities an electoral principle which, in some feature or other, would be met by their opposition. It was therefore plain that, failing an agreement, separate electorates, with all their drawbacks and difficulties, would have to be retained as the basis of the electoral arran!, “Cments under the new constitution. From this the question of proportions would arise. Under these circumstances, the claims of the Depressed Classes will have to be considered adequately.

* *

18. The Minorities and Depressed Classes were definite in their assertion that they could not consent to any self-governing constitution for India unless their demands were met in a reasonable manner.”

*

The Federal Structure Committee, another Committee appointed by the Round Table Conference to discuss the form and functions of the Central Government, had also to consider the question of the Untouchables in connection with the composition of the Federal Legislatures. In the rep01.t it made to the Conference it said: ­

“Opinion was unanimous in the sub-committee that, subject to any report of the Minorities Sub-Committee, provision should be made for the representation, possibly in both Chambers and certainly in the Lower Chamber, of certain special interests, namely, the Depressed Classes, Indian Christians, European, Anglo-Indians, Landlords, Commerce (European and Indian) and Labour.”

Before the first session of the Round Table conference was concluded the reports of both the committees were placed will be noticed that although agreement on details was lacking it was unanimously accepted the the Untouchables were entitled to recognition as a separate entity for political and constitutional purposes.

The only party in the country, whose attitude to this decision of the Round Table Conference was not known when the First Session of the Round Table Conference was closed, was the Congress. This was because the Congress had boycotted the Round Table Conference and was busy, in carrying on civil disobedience against the Government. By the time the Second session of the Round Table Conference became due, a compromise between His Majesty’s Government and the Congress was reached as a result of which the Gentiles agreed to participate in, it and make its contribution to the solution of the many problems confronting the Conference. Everybody, who had witnessed the good temper, happy relationship and the

Spirit of give and take shown by the delegates at the first session. Of the Round Table Conference, hoped that the progress made would be maintained from session to. Session. Indeed the rate of progress in forging an agreement was expected. To be much more rapid as a result of the advent of the Congress. In fact, friends of Congress were alleging that if the session did not produce an agreement it was because of the absence of the Congress.

Everybody was therefore looking forward to the Congress to lead the Conference to success. Unfortunately, the Congress chose Mr. Gandhi as its representative. A worse person could not have been chosen to guide India ‘s destiny. As a unif1ng force he was a failure. Mr. Gandhi presents himself as a man full of humility. But his behavior at the Round Table Conference showed that in the flush of, victory Mr. Gandhi can be very petty-minded. As a result of his successful com­promise with the Government just before he came, Mr. Gandhi treated the whole Non-Congress delegation with contempt. He insulted them whenever an occasion furnished him with an excuse by openly telling them that they were nobodies and that he alone, as the delegate of the Congress, repre­sented the country. Instead of unifying the Indian delegation, Mr. Gandhi widened the breach. From the point of view of knowledge, Mr. Gandhi proved himself to be a very ill-equipped person. On the many constitutional and communal questions with which the Conference was confronted, Mr. Garidhi had many platitudes to utter but no views or suggestions of a constructive character to offer. He presented a curious com­plex of man who ill, some cases would threaten to resist in every possible way any compromise on what he regarded as a principle though others regarded it as a pure prejudice but in other cases would not mind making the worst compromises on issues which appeared to others as matters of fundamental principle on which no compromise should be made.

Mr. Gandhi’s attitude to the demands of the Untouchables at the second session of the Round Table Conference furnishes the best illustration of this rather queer trait in his character. When the delegates assembled for the second session of the Round Table Conference the Federal Structure Committee met first. In the very first speech which he made in the Federal structure Committee on 15th September l931, Mr. Gandhi referred to the question of the Untouchables. Mr. Gandhi said: ­

“The Congress has, from its very commencement, taken up the cause of the so-called ‘Untouchables.’ There was a time when the Congress had at every annual session as its adjunct the Social Conference, to which the late Ranade dedicated his energies, among his many ‘other activities. Headed by him you will find, in the programmer of the Social Conference, reform in connection with the’ Untouchables’ taking a prominent place. But, in 1920, the Congress took a large step and brought in the question of the removal of untouchability as a plank on the political platform, making it an important item of the political programmer. Just as the Congress considered the Hindu-Muslim unity-thereby meaning unity amongst aU the classes-to be indispensable for the attainment of Swaraj, so also did the Congress consider the removal of the curse of untouchability as an indispensable condition for the attainment of full freedom. The position the Congress took up in 1920 remains the same today; and so you will see the Congress has attempted from its very beginning to be what it described itself to be~ namely, national in every sense of the term.”

Anyone, who has perused how the Congress failed to carry out the 1922 programmer for the uplift of the Untouchables which was included in the Bardoli programme and how it left it to the Hindu Maha Sabha, could have no hesitation in saying that what Mr. Gandhi said was untrue. The speech however gave no indication as to what line Mr. Gandhi was going to take on the demands presented by the Untouchables, although I could see the drift of it.1 but he did not leave people long in imagining what his position was going to be. The meeting of the Federal Structure Committee held on the 17th of September 1931 provided him the necessary occasion. The agenda for the meeting included the question of election of members of the Federal Legislatures. Expressing his views on the subject, Mr. Gandhi made the following statement: ­

“I come to sub-head (v)-representation by special con­stituencies of special interests. I here speak for the Congress. The Congress has reconciled itself to special treatment of the Hindu-Muslim-Sikh tangle. There are sound historical reasons for it ‘but the Congress will not extend that doctrine in any shape or form. I listened to the list of special interests. So far as the Untouchables are concerned, I have not yet quite grasped what Dr. Ambedkar has to say: but of course the Congress will share the honour with Dr. Ambedkar of representing the interests of the Untouchables. They are as clear to the Congress as the interests of any other body or of any other individual through­out the length and breadth of India . Therefore I would most strongly resist any further special representation.”

This was nothing but a declaration of War by Mr. Gandhi and the Congress against the Untouchables. In any case it resulted in a war between the two. With this declaration by Mr. Gandhi, I knew what Mr. Gandhi would do in the Minorities Committee which was the main forum for the discussion of this question.

Mr. Gandhi was making his plans to bypass the Untouchables and to close the communal problem by bringing about a settle­ment between the three parties, the Hindus, the Muslims and the Sikhs. He had been carrying on negotiations privately with the Muslims before the Minorities Committee met, but evidently they had not been concluded. C6nl§equently, when the Minorities Committee met on 28th September 1981, Sir Ali Imam representing the Nationalist Muslim point of view started the debate. He began by saying: ­

“I am personally not aware if there are any negotiations going on so far as the Muslim Delegation is concerned. I have had no opportunity of knowing that there are, any proposals at present that are under consideration. It may be, as I have heard generally, that some kind of understanding may be arrived at. I do not vouch for it; I know nothing about it. If you desire, Sir, that I should put before you the Muslim Nationalists; point of view, I shall be ready to do so; but of course, I must have your permission, because it may take a little time and economy of time in a meeting like this is one’s principal aim.

“Chairman: The point is that this Committee’s business is very strictly limited to a consolidation of the Minorities problem.

Sir Ali Imam.’ It is from that point of view that I shall approach the subject.

Chairman: If there is no other official intervention shall I call on Sir Ali Imam?”

Then followed His Highness the Aga Khan who said: ­

“I believe that Mahatma Gandhi is going to see the Muslim Delegation to-night. We hope to-night to have a fril1ndly talk with our friend. That is all that I can tell you as far as any possible negotiation is concerned.”

Pundit Madan Mohan Moldaviacx also suggested that a short adjournment may be fruitful of results. Knowing that this was a mischievous move I got spoke as follows: ­

“I should like to say one word before we adjourn. As regards your suggestion-that while these negotiations arc going on members of the other minority communities should prepare their case-I should like to say that so far as the Depressed Classes are concerned, we have already presented our case to the Minorities Sub-Committee last time.

“The only thing which remains for me to do is to put before this Committee a short statement1 suggesting the quantum of representation which we want in the different Legislatures. Beyond that I do not think I am called upon to do anything; hut the point I am anxious to make at the very outset is this. I have heard with great pleasure that further negotiations are going to take place for the settlement of the communal issue, but I would like to make our position clear at the very start. I do not wish any doubt should be left on this question. Those who are negotiating ought to understaI).d that they are not plenipotentiaries appointed by the Committee to negotiate a settlement; that whatever may be the representative character of Mr. Gandhi 01′ of the other parties with whom he wishes to negotiate, they certainly are not in a position to bind us-­certainly not. I say that most emphatically in this meeting.

“Another thing I want to say is this-that the claims put forward by the various minorities are claims put forward by them irrespective of the consideration as to whether the claims that they have put forward are consistent with the claims of the other minorities. Consequently, any settlement which takes place between one minority on the one hand and the Congress or any other party for the matter of that on the other hand, without taking into consideration the claims which have been put forward by other minorities, can have no binding force’ as far as I am concerned. I have no quarrel with the question whether any particular community should get wcightagc or not, but I do want to say most emphatically that whoever claims weightage and whoever is willing to give that weightage he must not give it-he cannot give it-out of my share. I want to make that absolutely plain.”

‘What followed will be clear from the extract from the pro­ceedings given below :­

“Chairman: Do not let there be any misunderstanding.

This is the body before which the final settlement must come, and the suggestion is merely that if there are minorities or com­munities that hitherto have been in conflict with caeh other they should use a short time for the purpose of trying to over­come their difficulties. That will be a step and a very important and essential step, towards a general agreement, but the agree­ment is going to be a general one.

Dr. Ambedkar: I have made my position absolutely clear. “Chairman: Dr. Ambedkar’s position has been made

absolutely elear ; in his usual splendid way he has left no doubt at all about it, and that will come up wlien this body resumes its discussion. What I would like to do is to get you all to feel that was are co-operating together for a general settlement; not for a settlement between any two 61′ any three, but a com­plete settlement.

“Chairman: The position is this. We will adjourn now, I think, and later continue ‘our meetings. Pending any negotia­tions that may be going on between any two or any three of you, we can take up the time in listening to a statement of the elaims of the other minorities. I think that would be very useful. It would save time, and it would not mar the possi­bility of any harmony that may be reached between, say, our Sikh friends-who, we know, can look after themselves with a great deal of persistence-Mr. Gandhi and his friends and the Aga Khan and his.

“Dr. Ambedkar: I should like to suggest whether it would not be possible for you to appoint a small Committee consisting of members drawn from the various minority communities, along with the Congress representatives, to sit in an informal nianner and discuss this problem during the period of the adjournment.

“Chairman: I was going to make this suggestion. Do not ask me to appoint that Committee; do it yourselves. I have invited you to get together. Could not you manage to hold an informal meeting amongst yourselves and talk the matter over, and then when you speak here you will speak with some sort of knowledge of the effect of what you are saying on others?

Could we leave it in that way?

“Dr. Ambedkar: As you like.

“Chairman: That would be far better.”

No settlement was evidently arrived at between the three parties during the adjournment. Consequently when the Minorities Committee met again on 1st October 1931 , Mr. Gandhi said:­

“Prime Minister, after consultation with His Highness the Aga Khan and other Muslim friends last night, we came to the conclusion that the purpose for which we meet here would be better served if a week’s adjournment was asked for. I have not had the opportunity of consulting my other colleagues, but I have no doubt that they will also agree in the proposal I am making.”

The proposal was seconded by the Aga Khan. I got up to oppose the motion. What I said will be clear from the follow­ing extract from the proceedings :­

“Dr. Ambedkar: I do not wish to create any difficulty in our making every possible attempt to arrive at some solution of the problem with which this Committee has to deal, and if a solution can be arrived at by the means suggested by Mahatma Gandhi, I, for one, will have no objection to that proposal.

“But there is just this one difficulty with which I, as representing the Depressed Classes, am faced. I do not know what sort of committee Mahatma Gandhi proposes to appoint to consider this question during the period of adjournment, but I suppose that the Depressed Classes will be represented on this Committee.

“Mr. Gandhi: Without doubt.

“Dr. Ambedkar: Thank you. But I do not know whether in the position in which I am today it would be of any use for me to work on the proposed Committee. And for this reason. Mahatma Gandhi told us on the first day that he spoke in the Federal Structure Committee that as a representative of the Indian National Congress he was not prepared to give political recognition to any community other than the Muhammadans and the Sikhs. He was not prepared to recognize the Anglo­Indians, the Depressed Classes, and the Indian Christians.

I do not think that I am doing any violence to etiquette by stating in this Committee that when I had the pleasure of meeting Mahatma Gandhi a week ago and discussing the question of the Depressed Classes with him, and when we, as members of the other minorities, had the chance of talking with him yester­day in his office, he told us in quite plain tenus that the attitude that he had taken in the Federal Structure Committee was a finn and well considered attitude. What I would like to say is that unless at the outset I know that the Depressed Classes are going to be recognized as a community entitled to political recognition in the future Constitution of India, I do not know whether it will serve any purpose for me to join the committee that is proposed by Mahatma Gandhi to be constituted to go into this matter. Unless, therefore, I have an assurance that tins Committee will start with the assumption that all those communities which the Minorities Sub-Committee last year recommended as fit for recognition in the future constitution of India will be included, I do not know that I can whole-heartedly support the proposition for adjournment, or that I can whole­heartedly co-operate with the Committee that is going to be nominated. That is what I wish to be clear about.

* * *

“Dr. Ambedkar: I should like to make my position further clear. It seems that there has been a certain misunderstanding regarding what I said. It is not that I object to adjournment; it is not that I object to serving on any Committee that might be appointed to consider the question. What I would like to know before I enter upon this committee, if they give me the privilege of serving on it, is : What is the thing that this Com­mittee is going to consider? Is it only going to consider the question of the Muhammadans vis-a-vis the Hindus? Is it going to consider the question of the Muhammadans vis-à-vis the Sikhs in the Punjab? Or is it going to consider the question of the Christians, the Anglo-Indians and the Depressed Classes?

“If we understand perfectly well before we start that this committee will not merely concern itself with the question of the Hindus and the Muhammadans, of the Hindus and the Sikhs, but, will also take upon itself the responsibility of con­sidering the case of the Depressed Classes, the Anglo- Indians and the Christians, I am perfectly willing to allow this adjourn­ment resolution to be passed without any objection. But I do want to say this, that if I am to be left out in the cold and, if this interval is going to be utilised for the purposes of solving the Hindu-Muslim question, I would press that the Minorities Committee should itself grapple with the question and consider it, rather than allow the question to be dealt with by some other informal Committee for arriving at a solution of the communal question in respect of some minorities only.

“Mr. Gandhi : Prime Minister and friends, I see that there is some kind of misunderstanding with reference to the scope of the work that some of us have set before ourselves. I fear that Dr. Ambedkar, Colonel Gidney and other friends are un­necessarily nervous about what is going to happen. Who am I to deny political status to any single interest or class or even individual in India? As a representative of the Congress I should be unworthy of the trust that has been reposed in me by the Congress if I were guilty of sacrificing a single national interest. I have undoubtedly given expression to my own views on these points. I must confess that I hold- to those views also. But there are ways and ways of guaranteeing protection to every single interest. It will be for those of us who will be putting our heads together to try to evolve a scheme. Nobody would be hampered in pressing his own views on the members of this very informal conference .or meeting.

.” I do not think, therefore, that anybody need be afraid as to being able to express his opinion or carrying his opinion also. Mine will be there equal to that of every one of us; it will carry no greater weight; I have no authority behind me to carry my opinion against the opinion of anybody. I have simply given expression to my views in the national interest, and I shall give expression to these views whenever they are opportune. It will be for you, it is for you to reject or accept these opinions. Therefore please disburse your minds, to every one of us, of the idea that there is going to be any steam­rolling in the Conference and the informal meetings that I have adumbrated. But if you think that this is one way of coming closer together than by sitting stiffly at this table, you will not carry. This adjournment motion but gives your whole-hearted co-operation to the proposal that I have made in connection with these informal meetings.

* * *

“Chairman: Then I shall proceed to put it. I put it on the clear understanding, my friends, that the time is not going to be wasted and that these conferences-as Mr. Gandhi has said,

Informal conferences, but nevertheless I hope very valuable and. fruitful conferences-will take place between now and. our next meeting. I hope you will all pledge yourselves to use the time in that way.”

It is unnecessary for me to recite what happened at the informal meeting held after the adjournment. It was a com­plete failure if not a fiasco. The meeting was presided over by .Mr. Gandhi. Mr. Gandhi began with the most difficult part of the Communal question namely the dispute between the Sikhs and the Muslims in the Punjab. This problem at one stage appeared to be nearer solution when the parties agreed to abide by the decision, of an Arbitrator. The Sikhs, however, refused to proceed further in the matter until they knew who the Arbitrator was. As the Musalmans were not prepared to have the name of the Arbitrator disclosed the matter fell through. Mr. Gandhi was not interested in the problem of the other minorities, – such as the Untouchables although he enacted the farce of calling upon the representatives of the other minorities to present a catalogue of their demands. He heard them but took no notice of them much. Did he place them before the meeting for its consideration? As soon as the Sikh-Muslim settlement broke up, Mr. Gandhi dissolved the meeting. The Minorities Committee met on. 8th October 1931. The Prime Minister having called upon Mr. Gandhi to speak first, the latter said:­-

“Prime Minister and friends, it is with deep sorrow and deeper humiliation that I have to announce utter failure on my part to secure an agreed solution of the communal question through informal conversations among and with the repre­sentatives of different groups. I apologies to you, Mr. Prime Minister, and the other colleagues for the waste of a precious week. My only consolation lies in the fact that when I accepted ‘the burden of carrying on these talks I knew that there was much hope of success and still more in the fact that I am not aware of having spared any effort to reach it solution.

“But to say that the conversations have to our utter shame failed is not to say the whole truth. Causes of failure ‘were inherent in the composition of the Indian Delegation. We are almost all not elected representatives of the parties .or groups whom we are presumed to represent; we are here by nomination of the Government. Nor are those whose presence was absolutely necessary for an agreed solution to be found here. Further, you will allow me to say that this was hardly the time to summon the Minorities Committee. It lacks the sense of reality in that we do not know what it is that. We are going to get. If we knew in a definite manner that we were going to get the thing we want, we should hesitate fifty times before we threw it away in a sinful wrangle as it would be if we are told that the getting of it would depend upon the ability of the present Delegation to produce an agreed solution of the com­munal tangle. The solution can be the crown of the Swaraj constitution, not its foundation-if only because our differences

have hardened, if they have not arisen, by reason of the foreign domination. I have not a shadow of a doubt that the ice bag of communal differences will melt under the warmth of the sun of freedom.

“I, therefore, venture to suggest that the Minorities Com­mittee be adjourned sine die and that the fundamentals of the constitution be hammered into shape as quickly as may be. Meanwhile, the informal work of discovering a true solution of the communal problem will and must continue; only it must not baulk or be allowed to block the progress of constitution­ building. Attention must be diverted from it and concentrated on the main part of the structure.

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Posted on September 24, 2008